- During the meeting with Gorbachev and the Russian intelligentsia, Rasputin said something like this: "All our misfortunes are due to lack of culture, lack of culture. Culture is threatened by disease. That disease is worse than the plague, it is immorality, it is the disease of immorality." Indeed, society is becoming demoralized, and this is the greatest danger that threatens us. This continuing moral decline must be stopped. This is what worries us, will we be able to resist?
- Before that meeting between Gorbachev and the Russian intelligentsia, when giving interviews to Russian journalists, I noticed that they did not demand bread, bread and work for the people, but spiritual food. Rasputin's phrase is a paraphrase of that familiar phrase. But I am a peasant, consider me a Marxist. let's give the people that work, that food and then only talk about culture. Otherwise, in a completely different way, through the worship of material, the West approached the cultural and spiritual world much sooner than we, who were a country of ideology and wanted to approach culture through culture. Between us and that culture are still the fields, fields, vegetable gardens that should have been and are not.
I also feel like you that even in this state of ours, in the conditions of this poverty, culture and discipline could prevent this widespread crisis, this mental erosion. But this is already a question of the way, I think we have talked with you once, it is again the question of dictatorship and army order, which in our current conditions of the unfolding of democracy, in the conditions of the unfolding parade of global democracy, may seem barbaric. Indeed, we are entering a dead end here, because on the one hand, we really should have arrived in army order, we should have gotten out of our current situation with less losses, on the other hand, world democracy has just overwhelmed us with its abundance, like a flood. We are in a really dramatic situation.
- I am simply horrified by the idea of that demoralized people. Its consequences are already being felt...
- We will have to wait for this law, we will have to wait for this evil, this cruelty, this poverty. We will have to wait, this is how it should be. The drama of our situation is that the television, the press, in a word, the world of speech, which had its charming manifestations not in us, in these conditions of speeding up of television, newspaper, communications, came and imposed themselves on us, and we are in the condition of a poor relative. My soul, which should be flying here, or is flying in the world of symbols created by the West, in the pure skies of work and freedom, my mind is again in this Asian garbage. My situation is very tragic indeed. We have to turn the immaterial hope into a sail that the moral structure of our people will be stronger than these storms hitting us today, and we will stand. There are losses. On the one hand America has opened the doors in the form of paradise, on the other hand the Asian barbarian is knocking, there are losses, but we must come to terms with them and turn our hopes again to the people who will be a remnant for tomorrow and on which the Armenia of tomorrow will flourish.
It will be so, I know it will be so, I see that image of tomorrow with the real images of yesterday. The youth of my "ability" ran away from the village yesterday, we left the village to the lazy and weak of our schools. Years later, from my spheres of "world literature!", "fame!", "great people", I fell into the world of my "backward" friends, I fell into the village and what did I see? that they also flourished their civilization there and... there was something exciting and dear. I saw images that I don't want to be spent now because I care if I will ever write. But I saw that they remained the same moral sons of the land, preserved their image of peasants, Armenians, as if they even knew that we will return our poor and defective children from the city to them, the village, and they themselves will be fathers and big brothers to them. With the example of the images I have seen, I want to nurture the idea that even the remainder will be enough for the country to be called Armenia again and to be an example of morality, a standard of morality for the world.
- I don't know, surely you remember that Dostoevsky has a case, it is about an official. It shows the dirtiness of the environment and the atmosphere and as if it takes us through it. It describes the destruction of an individual in the Petersburg mess, snow, ice. On the one hand, the problem of the destruction of the individual, which seemed to exist at all times (but we know that it has not been destroyed), is calming and...
- Now I don't know if it was true that we took Russian literature and the East in general, the world beyond the Carpathians, but here we can emphasize one thing: the clash between the empire and the individual, the clash between the collective and the individual, the destruction of the individual. There is literature for it, and kudos to its creators for turning our sympathy to the individual. But our understanding of that literature would be incomplete if we did not say that they also went to the worship of the empire from the other side, let's say to the worship of the will of Peter the Great. Maybe it was expressed in a different way among us. Today, our nostalgic view of the regions of Tigran the Great is the same view as Pushkin's approach to Petros. In general terms, see what picture is revealed. on the one hand, the cherishing of the individual in the West has made Western civilization flourish, again so powerfully that it seems as if there had never been a society of collectivists. A confederation of individuals there, and a society of units lost in the mass here. It's something to think about, we'll talk more about it another time. Perhaps every country is a child of its culture. not the culture is the child of the country, but the country of its literature, thing. Perhaps this is my interpretation of the biblical phrase "In the beginning was the thing", perhaps I am misunderstanding, but ultimately the confrontation with the facts leads us to this conclusion. The West is the heir of Shakespeare, the countries of the West are the sons of Shakespeare. Instead of the Apostle Paul, Cervantes and all the others, I name Shakespeare, Shakespeare's son is the West: Australia, New Zealand, America, England... where, let's say, Shakespeare gave man the opportunity, he didn't preserve it, he opened those opportunities to fall like Lady Macbeth to the depths of hell and rise like Hamlet to the upper spheres. And when, say, Tolstoy was faced with the problem of decline and decay, he rejected that decline. And by restraining the decline, it actually limited the limitless horizons of human activity. Another time, denying all other readings, he had to edit even the Gospels, turn them into something else, turn one country - one faith - one Gospel. This is a topic, if you can, you should think about it yourself, find the true answers, but my impression is that the consequence of our so-called great culture is the tragic state of our country today, and their country is the expression of their culture. Where did we start, find the clues...
- We were talking about the destruction of an individual, let me continue, what I said was left unfinished. So, on the one hand, I think that the hour of the destruction of the individual has really come, "starvation of the spirit" that is devouring the "last Mohicans". Maybe it's pessimism, but, I don't know why, I think the doors of exit have been closed and there is no return to the horses running freely, and there is no Alkho groaning under the load and, it seems, there won't be.
- But maybe also today's course, today's moment is so dark that our eyes really close to future horizons. No need to spread out and despair there. Maybe it really is the period of transition from which the flowering period of the individual begins. Alkho, the other, the cultivated people of Axel, the characters that have come to life in Armenian literature to a greater or lesser extent may find other manifestations tomorrow, you may not even recognize that they were there yesterday and were yours. In Saroyan's Fresno, we saw an Armenian farmer, the only sign of the farmer was the light dust on his feet. He did everything with his four nephews: blooming gardens, a factory, all-American competitiveness... I don't want to be reconciled that they have to leave here to become like that, I want to be comforted that they will become like that here, and opportunities are opening up for an enterprising Armenian man today.
- Faulkner said that national upheavals have a positive effect on the nation's literature. Will these shocks affect our literature and art? You talked about those characters to be created...
- In another interview, when there was a question about why I kept silent, why Armenian literature has been left unmasked today, I did not find the answer. Now that American literature example of yours helped me find the answer. Indeed, in times of crisis for America, American literature flourished. Faulkner, Saroyan, Woolf, Steinbeck, Caldwell and others, who today are the golden fund of American literature...
- The same can be said about Latin American literature.
- Yes. Our generation of elders really went out of their way to move, and that's how it should have been. I hope that such boys are born who will be the trees of tomorrow's literature forest. I have already said once what happened to Charents and what happened to Tumanyan.
- Our nation is like a person who does not find his place in life. Searches, searches, scrapes, but does not find, does not reach.
- My ambitions, your ambitions too, are greater than the possibilities, and here it seems so tragic. I also caress the longing for the entire Armenian homeland from here to Izmir, without denying the Turks of course. I want that atmosphere of friendship, Phariseeism, commerce. I was also brutalized, under those heavy blows I also said that we are all the children of Sultan Hamid, we were born from his coercion, his violence. He made us this way. In these conditions, our aggravated condition is created: a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye... But on the other hand, we are able to see ourselves in this real world, and the image of another real homeland stands before us: your flourishing American colony, your Armenian colony that will flourish tomorrow in Russia... Here, the possibilities of a person open up before an individual, and in Russia tomorrow I have a homeland, according to that, and the whole world is my homeland of the Armenian people. That homeland is a reality in the conditions of today's speeds, if the given and united Armenian homeland was a reality in the pedestrian world of yesterday, it is even more a reality today and tomorrow, all that remains is for a wise call to wake us all up at the same time, to put us all to sleep at the same time, and it would be very good if that call was heard from here, from Masisner and Aragats. But also I really do not deny, I believe that not today, tomorrow Erzurum will also be mine, Van will also be mine, tomorrow my boys, my children will climb the top of Masis with Turkish mountaineers. It is meant to be. These are the doors we will open tomorrow, and the light will shine from here, and we will go in that direction.
- In other words, we must pursue the "spiritual Armenia" dreamed of at the beginning of the century and live with that hope.
- As much as you, I would like that instead of "spiritual Armenia" there would be a big material Armenia, there would be soil under my feet, my dogs would be next to my herds and my sons would stand on my border. It wouldn't be bad. But if we consider life not destruction, explosion, denial, which is the work of the idle, but daily work, constant work, constant sweat, even work for the sake of work, then for our generations a place is opened for a continuous process, a non-stop train to that "spiritual Armenia".
- When they talk about the peasant, for some reason I can't accept that peasant separately, I imagine: the peasant, the land and God. The sequence was incorrect. I should have said God-peasant-land. Now this system has been broken, there is no connection between God and the peasant, the peasant and the land.
- Beyond our borders, let's exclude the rest of the world, let's not talk about the Earth or else, let's give glory to God that we are not alone in our misfortune. The Russian peasant is also in our situation. So comfort us. Indeed, our situation is not enviable, at least we do not have 15 percent of the population in the village, we do not have peasantry. And there is no place for what was, the world is in a parade of confidence and opulence, you are still in your poor slopes with your shovel and breeches. You don't have land, you don't have cattle, you are not the persistent farmer of yesterday. But let's say something serious: let's consider the earthquake a blessing, that it opened up a job front for the unemployed, and let's consider it a blessing that when we step outside our borders, they punch us in the nose. So we become our ruined, poor homeland. This is Armenia and there is no other Armenia.
- I think you said that thought on one occasion. If I am not mistaken, this is how you said that our people are left alone and it brings its good sides, it brings spiritual independence, spiritual autonomy. Has it been brought now or will it be brought?
- It will be brought. One very clear thing, however, happened this summer. Let's even consider it a good thing that they turned off the gas. Showed who they are and who we are so we can find our place. We find our place.
- It seems that you contradicted what you said at the beginning of our conversation, that we need material things first, and now you say that they cut off the gas, that is a good thing, that is, they cut off the material things, we have to face it with our spiritual independence.
- Let's find the unconditional answer together. In a besieged citadel there is order and a struggle of spiritual, mental, and physical abilities, and we are the besieged citadel. Either we will be weak and the epidemic will eat us, or we will be smart and overcome. I think we have not won once and we will live again. Tomorrow we will sow our bread, we will keep our cattle, we will be both the cultivator and the owner of our land.
- In your opinion, what effect can artistic speech have on the state of mind of society? To what extent is a man of art and literature responsible for what happened to the nation?
- As much as you, I feel the need for that great, radiating speech that brings optimism to the people. That's the job of many more political leaders today, right now. Our literature, our Word has empowered, given, and is now waiting for its response. I feel the need for a political leader, that leader who fills us with optimism and gathers the nation. Do you want to call that leader Christ, do you want an Indiranik military leader... to mock and lead?
- In other words, a person of literature should not say that word?
- We talked about it a little while ago. for Jefferson to be born, there had to be Shakespeare. Jefferson is Shakespeare's son. The duty of our literature and art should have been to create the atmosphere in which the image of the political leader would rise, to saturate the environment with the words that would sound like the Word of God from the mouth of the political leader. How much we failed, how much we gave, they didn't hear, how much they and we live our national Armenian life... how strong voices of others do not prevent us from hearing our own voice.
- In the end, it turns out that that word should be the word of the people, and the people should help and lift up the one who says that word.
- Culture and people together should have created the atmosphere from which, it seems, as the word of God, the politician should have taken and returned to the people.
- What I said will bring back the beginning of our conversation, to demoralization, to that idea of the destruction of the individual. A good deed is done, we stop talking about it, which was natural for centuries, today we put the money on the camel's back and say, "Look, look, this is Santa Claus smiling at the child."
- In the expression of the Russians, we are constantly moving closer to each other. We do it close, but we don't fall on the kernel itself. I have my own fault in that, because constantly, those thoughts being in me, I consumed them or did them through someone else, I did not write them with my own hand, or haphazardly, I wasted my thoughts before my mind was mature, I wasted myself. But I feel the need for it. It will be said, no spending, no wasting. This same idea, if you have followed, on television, in the press (even our today's press, thank God, all of them are almost true and believable) everyone wastes, wears out that main idea, and the main formula does not seem to be found. I also feel that I am waiting for that word from Moses. Moses carried a noise to Mount Sinai and brought a voice. For us, this whole thing is still a noise without a clear formula. I need a voice, I need it. Even I see myself as a criminal, that here I did not suggest to someone else that my thought seemed like something to continue for him, and he could say it himself.
- Why is there such a desire for the church today, for various denominations? Maybe the lack of speech is the reason, or are we going back to our roots?
- We will neither encourage nor hinder that flow of people. It's a pilgrimage to the forbidden zone of yesterday, a lot will fall into place by tomorrow, and that flow will not have such dimensions. Religion will find its rightful place in culture, and that's it. In tribulation there has always been a flow to the feet of God.
- I don't know why, I have the impression that when it comes to God, the "Bible", you avoid talking.
- I have a personal shortcoming, when I see that everyone is talking about something: I keep silent. And when it is forbidden for everyone, I am the first brave person to step forward. It would have been about Dashnaktsutyun yesterday, when it was a banned, persecuted party (all my steps were to expose it, to allow it, to discuss its rights... now everyone is saying that, I don't seem to have anything else to do there) or God, it doesn't matter. I look at the God question as a cultural question. Our committee also talks about it, there are proposals to throw Armenia back into the Middle Ages. Everyone has a Levon Chant. But Shant himself was getting rid of his nostalgia, his longing for the past by the realization of the drama ("Old Gods"), today's people do not have that literary gift and want to play their "old gods" about the Middle Ages and God with real people. It's a failure. And if we say that we have work to do in that region, then we should simply give that culture as a subject taught to the children at school - the history of religion, religions - let us have broad-minded children. So much so, as a history of culture.
- Are your parents believers?
- My parents are peasant Armenians, one day they are believers, two days they are not.
- What will you present to the readers in the near future?
- In front of me, what I will do is to leave the parliament, isolate myself somewhere, provide my family with bread for six months and really be able to indulge in pure silence for a month, so that I can forget all this and be able to fall into the world where I was before this chaos. It really was a world that took a really worthwhile effort to get into.
The interview was conducted by Edik BAGHDASARYAN
"Lusavorich", 04.12.1990